**** LOGGING STARTED {Ages ago, wasn't much chatter till now though} ****
Apr 02 00:57:16 (Garison)	5 min til are first "meeting"
Apr 02 00:57:20 (Garison)	right?
Apr 02 00:57:35 (Garison)	lets hope no one forgot to set their alarm :P
Apr 02 00:57:59 (Revicul)	well for some ppl its going to be later in the day than you and me
Apr 02 00:58:06 (Garison)	yea
Apr 02 00:58:16 *	Deathifier doesn't call 1am *late*
Apr 02 00:58:36 (Garison)	i call 11 AM early though...
Apr 02 00:59:10 (Macroz)	Good for you Deathifier ;)
Apr 02 00:59:16 (Garison)	lol
Apr 02 01:01:21 (Garison)	Would it be possible to make a 3d map for EFS2?
Apr 02 01:01:36 (Macroz)	3d map of what?
Apr 02 01:01:42 (Garison)	the galaxy
Apr 02 01:01:59 (Macroz)	there is no use... the galaxies are almost always either oval or flat disks :-)
Apr 02 01:02:03 (Garison)	or do you think ut would just be confusing?
Apr 02 01:02:11 (Macroz)	that is the bigger reason not to do it
Apr 02 01:02:47 (Garison)	ok, scrap that idea
Apr 02 01:05:11 (Garison)	at what scale is EFS "galaxy" on anyway. compared to the real galaxy?
Apr 02 01:05:23 (Garison)	like in game terms
Apr 02 01:05:39 (Garison)	is it suppose to be the whole galaxy or jsut a peice.
Apr 02 01:05:43 (Macroz)	very very insignificant fraction ;)
Apr 02 01:05:48 (Revicul)	yea
Apr 02 01:06:01 (Deathifier)	It's the galaxy known to humans
Apr 02 01:06:06 (Macroz)	in Milky Way there is about 100 billion stars and that's not even a big galaxy
Apr 02 01:06:10 (Deathifier)	ie what they can get to via jumpgates
Apr 02 01:06:17 (Macroz)	a 100 known systems is... you guessed it, insignificant
Apr 02 01:06:23 (Macroz)	they don't have to be near to each other, yep
Apr 02 01:06:28 (Revicul)	yea but macroz how may of hose are habitible
Apr 02 01:06:37 (Macroz)	some estimates have half
Apr 02 01:06:56 (Macroz)	I wouldn't trust anyone on those figures though
Apr 02 01:07:18 (Deathifier)	We don't know yet, since we can't see many planets from here :)
Apr 02 01:07:43 (Macroz)	that's just more or less educated guesses
Apr 02 01:07:47 (Garison)	we could have are top down map like spoc3, with the large stars representing systems
Apr 02 01:07:56 (Garison)	with gates.
Apr 02 01:08:00 (Macroz)	with our limited vision we have already detected over 50 planets
Apr 02 01:08:58 (Garison)	so is it usable?
Apr 02 01:09:07 (Macroz)	for EFS2 also a planetary view is in order
Apr 02 01:09:13 (Garison)	i like it as it gives the player a feel of LARGE playing feild :P
Apr 02 01:09:29 (Garison)	better then efs1 did
Apr 02 01:09:40 (Macroz)	a system view is in my opinion a must, look at Byzantium Secundus for example... there should be many planets there
Apr 02 01:09:44 (Macroz)	and moons for some planets
Apr 02 01:10:00 (Macroz)	and that's what people expect
Apr 02 01:10:03 (Garison)	planet veiw is definately in.
Apr 02 01:10:13 (Garison)	i think everyone liked the idea on the forum
Apr 02 01:10:25 (Macroz)	the question is how much we want to change things?
Apr 02 01:10:54 (Macroz)	are we just doing a clone of EFS with bugs fixed or are we making the best game that has most of the ideas ripped from EFS?
Apr 02 01:11:17 (Garison)	i want to take the EFS universe and make a game that is the best of the best.
Apr 02 01:11:24 (Revicul)	we could just make an exact clone then hava another version that is more advanced
Apr 02 01:11:28 (Garison)	well, as a high-end goal atlest
Apr 02 01:11:30 (Macroz)	I'm an advocate of the second option even though we would do good to base our models in EFS in the beginning
Apr 02 01:11:33 (Revicul)	well not an exact clone
Apr 02 01:13:13 (Deathifier)	Take the basic gameplay and enhance it
Apr 02 01:13:37 (Garison)	the same tech ideas, with advances.
Apr 02 01:13:50 (Macroz)	the parts are: planetary and space warfare, empire management, diplomacy ... more?
Apr 02 01:14:06 (Garison)	thats about it
Apr 02 01:14:10 (Deathifier)	That covers most of it pretty generally.
Apr 02 01:14:38 (Macroz)	well shall we start by implementing those first?-)
Apr 02 01:14:44 (Deathifier)	The key thing we should aim for is to make a lot of parts user-customisable.
Apr 02 01:15:09 (Garison)	customizablity will be the major thing
Apr 02 01:15:13 (Macroz)	I think we need quite significant changes to reduce micro-management even if we keep the same parts
Apr 02 01:15:24 (Garison)	AI will take a big role
Apr 02 01:15:28 (Deathifier)	Yes micromanagement is a pain.
Apr 02 01:15:32 (Macroz)	like reducing the number of controlled units?
Apr 02 01:15:41 (Macroz)	I will give an example
Apr 02 01:15:50 (Garison)	no so much reducing units, but give the ability to automate units
Apr 02 01:15:51 (Deathifier)	Less starships might be good.
Apr 02 01:15:57 (Macroz)	we could do this reduction by using less hexes (or some other blocks)
Apr 02 01:16:02 (Deathifier)	Garison: What kind of automation?
Apr 02 01:16:10 (Garison)	like auto-scouting
Apr 02 01:16:22 (Garison)	way points
Apr 02 01:16:23 (Deathifier)	Macroz: Less hexes mean less space, means less productivity per planet.
Apr 02 01:16:25 (Macroz)	automating most is a possibility
Apr 02 01:16:31 (Revicul)	or way points for moving resources around
Apr 02 01:16:42 (Macroz)	no, if the less hexes are at a bigger scale then
Apr 02 01:16:50 (Deathifier)	Trade/transport routes will be in there ;)
Apr 02 01:16:53 (Garison)	anyone take a look at my post on the forum under AI?
Apr 02 01:17:00 (Macroz)	Deathifier: definitely as will build lists
Apr 02 01:17:06 *	Deathifier imagine half screen hexes.
Apr 02 01:17:08 (Garison)	Ai something something
Apr 02 01:17:16 (Macroz)	yes but that's too early to discuss in my opinion
Apr 02 01:17:24 (Garison)	hehe
Apr 02 01:17:30 (Revicul)	how would bigger hexes help
Apr 02 01:17:31 (Deathifier)	AI is tricky.
Apr 02 01:17:39 (Macroz)	build lists and such are like compulsory nowadays... not open for discussion :)
Apr 02 01:17:51 (Deathifier)	I don't think giving people less space will make them build less units.
Apr 02 01:17:59 (Macroz)	Revicul: that's just reducing the number of units... less micromanagement :)
Apr 02 01:18:06 (Macroz)	an example how to accomplish that
Apr 02 01:18:16 (Macroz)	more expensive units =) less units
Apr 02 01:18:29 (Deathifier)	Thats out of our direct control though
Apr 02 01:18:30 (Macroz)	less production =) less money =) less units
Apr 02 01:18:43 (Garison)	higher upkeep = less units
Apr 02 01:18:54 (Macroz)	even with bigger hexes we could keep the same amount of units if we make better stacks
Apr 02 01:18:58 (Deathifier)	someone might want a mod where everything produces billions, units have no upkeep and cost peanuts to build :)
Apr 02 01:18:59 (Garison)	resource upkeep = less units 
Apr 02 01:19:04 (Macroz)	that too
Apr 02 01:19:22 (Macroz)	then that someone likes the EFS of today and can do so to get the same level of units ;)
Apr 02 01:19:28 (Macroz)	I don't want that ;)
Apr 02 01:19:51 (Deathifier)	Macroz: It isn't something you can guarantee though.
Apr 02 01:20:06 (Macroz)	what?
Apr 02 01:20:07 (Deathifier)	It's a mod concern, not a game design concern IMO.
Apr 02 01:20:26 (Macroz)	well its both
Apr 02 01:20:33 (Deathifier)	As the game designers we cannot rely on people playing a set mod.
Apr 02 01:20:36 (Garison)	modders should have free range to change what they will.
Apr 02 01:20:45 (Macroz)	no but they design the game for a certain 'mod'
Apr 02 01:21:02 (Macroz)	like Max Payne... the modders can turn that into kungfu action if they like but it's going to be hard
Apr 02 01:21:23 (Deathifier)	True, But modding unit costs won't be very hard.
Apr 02 01:21:24 (Macroz)	and we all agree reducing micro-management then we have to design for that
Apr 02 01:21:33 (Macroz)	I do think the hexes are about the right size though, but do we want hexes?
Apr 02 01:21:43 *	Deathifier was thinking of octagons
Apr 02 01:21:52 *	Garison was thinking a grid system
Apr 02 01:22:11 (Revicul)	i dont really like the idea of a frid system
Apr 02 01:22:12 (Macroz)	hexes beat grids, I think but we could have a free form system or triangles
Apr 02 01:22:19 (Deathifier)	Oct is as high as you can go, or you run out of keys on the keypad :)
Apr 02 01:22:21 (Revicul)	but hexes or octagons are better
Apr 02 01:22:34 (Garison)	grid is just easy.
Apr 02 01:22:37 (Macroz)	I assume octagons mean a grid with diagonal movmenet
Apr 02 01:22:49 (Deathifier)	Garison: Square grids play terribly.
Apr 02 01:23:04 (Macroz)	squares are worse then hexes if diagonals don't cost 1.4 times as much
Apr 02 01:23:27 (Garison)	scrap squares.
Apr 02 01:23:29 (Macroz)	I've had this vision I'd like to do spherical planets ;)
Apr 02 01:23:38 (Garison)	hexes and octi
Apr 02 01:23:48 (Garison)	oh my
Apr 02 01:23:55 (Deathifier)	Unless you display it flat you're going to give players an aweful headache :)
Apr 02 01:24:06 (Macroz)	I haven't tried it yet
Apr 02 01:24:17 (Macroz)	but I would imagine something like UFO
Apr 02 01:24:21 (Deathifier)	Wrapping units as they move off each edge is cool.
Apr 02 01:24:25 (Macroz)	just a bit faster mouse movement
Apr 02 01:24:45 (Macroz)	so you could spin the globe fast and zoom in/out as you like
Apr 02 01:24:51 (Deathifier)	Macroz: That is adding in a hell of a lot of mouse clicking per planet.
Apr 02 01:24:53 (Macroz)	but this I think is something I have to do a feasibility study for
Apr 02 01:25:04 (Garison)	I don't like the idea of spherical planets.
Apr 02 01:25:14 (Macroz)	are you sure? well I do a lot of right-clicking already ;)
Apr 02 01:25:21 (Revicul)	so do i
Apr 02 01:25:24 (Deathifier)	The current system is nice and simple both visually and conceptually.
Apr 02 01:25:30 (Macroz)	making the ball spin when I move mouse to edges is about the same trouble
Apr 02 01:26:02 *	Deathifier can imagine drawing pathing lines across a sphere.
Apr 02 01:26:06 (Macroz)	the only addition is that it's uber-cool, may have trouble in gameplay but that can only be tested
Apr 02 01:26:26 (Macroz)	you just pick start and stop, have the path-finding routine come up with it
Apr 02 01:26:28 (Deathifier)	How would go about giving a planet view though?
Apr 02 01:26:51 (Macroz)	well then we could project the stuff on a rectangular surface
Apr 02 01:27:02 (Macroz)	but it's harder to map to the other direction
Apr 02 01:27:04 (Garison)	what about a flat-pane map ALA a real map, and a globe view at the click of a button?
Apr 02 01:27:24 (Macroz)	the problem is the grid/hexes whatever
Apr 02 01:27:26 (Deathifier)	I think you'll find just sticking to a flat map permanently is easier.
Apr 02 01:27:49 (Macroz)	how about I do a test of it in the summer or so?
Apr 02 01:28:05 (Deathifier)	If you want to go all out for movement then you could abandon hexes all together.
Apr 02 01:28:17 (Deathifier)	Macroz: Ok
Apr 02 01:28:19 (Macroz)	the problem is coming up with terrain type
Apr 02 01:28:37 (Deathifier)	The terrain can be indepenant of unit positioning.
Apr 02 01:28:38 (Macroz)	you need some kind of subdivision for that unless you get straight from a fractal but then you can't modify the terrain
Apr 02 01:29:05 (Macroz)	true, that would allow more granularity in movement
Apr 02 01:29:10 (Deathifier)	For 3D it's usually done with a quad-tree sort of structure :)
Apr 02 01:29:25 (Deathifier)	We can have free-form movement, ala starcraft
Apr 02 01:29:45 (Macroz)	quadtree or regular grid like in heightfields
Apr 02 01:29:50 (Garison)	I like to have the movements clearly lined out for strategy reasons
Apr 02 01:29:59 (Macroz)	I haven't played that but isn't it like the rest?
Apr 02 01:30:17 (Deathifier)	the movement system invisibly works off something akin to hexes
Apr 02 01:30:30 (Macroz)	one sort of an idea for the units would be that you could define the area it's holding
Apr 02 01:30:35 (Deathifier)	but the units run around as if it was freeform - their position is an offset on their current 'hex' (or matrix as the game calls it)
Apr 02 01:30:35 (Macroz)	the works well for free-form movement
Apr 02 01:30:52 (Macroz)	you get a sort of stack density over an area
Apr 02 01:31:08 (Garison)	i like that idea Mac.
Apr 02 01:31:26 (Macroz)	putting more units into stacks would reduce the amount of movement that has to be done
Apr 02 01:31:48 (Deathifier)	combining units is an interesting idea
Apr 02 01:31:52 (Garison)	yea.
Apr 02 01:32:05 (Macroz)	well one idea I've had is this
Apr 02 01:32:18 (Macroz)	have the basic units like company size and make the bigger units by adding as much as you like
Apr 02 01:32:33 (Macroz)	to come up with division sized units or so
Apr 02 01:32:38 (Macroz)	maybe even army groups/armies
Apr 02 01:32:50 (Macroz)	so add a couple anti-armor companies to that division to counter enemy armour
Apr 02 01:32:57 (Deathifier)	There should still be a limit as to what can exist in one spot though.
Apr 02 01:33:07 (Macroz)	kind of like mixed unit stacks but take that better into account in the combat resolution
Apr 02 01:33:14 (Garison)	so basicly you pre-define what kinda armor/weapons the unit has before creating it
Apr 02 01:33:19 (Macroz)	Deathifier: well think about this
Apr 02 01:33:42 (Macroz)	the radius of Earth is a bit over 6k kilometers
Apr 02 01:33:54 (Macroz)	you get about 40 000 km around the equator
Apr 02 01:34:05 (Deathifier)	It's big, yes.
Apr 02 01:34:05 (Macroz)	have a 100 x 100 grid = 400 km per squre
Apr 02 01:34:10 (Macroz)	you can fit a hell in that ;)
Apr 02 01:34:25 (Deathifier)	It depends what you are putting in it :)
Apr 02 01:34:26 (Macroz)	even if you don't put man aside man like in Napoleonic wars
Apr 02 01:34:33 (Revicul)	how big is the grid now
Apr 02 01:34:48 (Macroz)	no idea yet but even with 1000 x 1000 it would be quite much (40 km)
Apr 02 01:34:58 (Revicul)	that is a very big grid
Apr 02 01:35:22 (Macroz)	but a division sized unit would cover something like a single square in real-life?
Apr 02 01:35:36 (Deathifier)	The sizes for planets are too large though for gameplay
Apr 02 01:36:05 (Deathifier)	Having 50 1000x1000 planets is rather insane
Apr 02 01:36:47 (Deathifier)	The grid in EFS isn't terribly large, yet it plays out fine.
Apr 02 01:37:44 (Deathifier)	Planet size has to be balanced with galaxy size, as the planet gets larger there is more and more micromanagement that has to be done to maintain it.
Apr 02 01:38:04 (Deathifier)	Unless you trust the AI to build things in optimal places...
Apr 02 01:38:11 (Garison)	the thing is figuring out what anti-management (that sounds bad but you know what i mean) is in place.
Apr 02 01:38:29 (Deathifier)	anti-management?
Apr 02 01:38:37 (Revicul)	i guess he doenst know what you mean
Apr 02 01:38:40 (Garison)	micro-managment reducers
Apr 02 01:38:46 (Deathifier)	automation :)
Apr 02 01:38:48 (Garison)	like AI assist
Apr 02 01:39:05 (Garison)	lol, i'm still sleepy.
Apr 02 01:39:12 (Revicul)	there isnt really any in place now
Apr 02 01:39:14 (Macroz)	that will never satisfy all thoygh
Apr 02 01:39:23 (Deathifier)	No assistant will do exactly what you want, and a 'control freak' will want to do it manually anyway.
Apr 02 01:40:07 (Garison)	true, i trust things to do what i said, but not well.
Apr 02 01:40:13 (Deathifier)	Things that require no thinking are the best for automation :)
Apr 02 01:40:20 (Revicul)	what things need to be automated first of all
Apr 02 01:40:34 (Revicul)	building units?
Apr 02 01:40:42 (Revicul)	moving resources around?
Apr 02 01:40:45 (Revicul)	what others
Apr 02 01:40:48 (Deathifier)	Transport/trade routes
Apr 02 01:40:54 (Deathifier)	Patrol routes
Apr 02 01:40:56 (Garison)	production waypoints (where units go when they are built) ALA real-time strats.
Apr 02 01:40:56 (Deathifier)	Movement routes
Apr 02 01:41:22 (Deathifier)	Build lists/orders (not self-governing though)
Apr 02 01:41:23 (Revicul)	movement routes?
Apr 02 01:41:29 (Deathifier)	Revicul: Pathfinding
Apr 02 01:41:52 (Garison)	Ai players 
Apr 02 01:41:58 (Revicul)	most of the those do not seem hard to fix
Apr 02 01:42:03 (Deathifier)	They aren't
Apr 02 01:42:10 (Revicul)	or make eaiser to handle at least
Apr 02 01:42:20 (Deathifier)	Because they don't require thought - just repetitive tasks.
Apr 02 01:42:43 (Deathifier)	Something that tries to build units in a city on it's own is much harder.
Apr 02 01:43:08 (Garison)	computer player AI is last.
Apr 02 01:43:13 (Deathifier)	A good example is the Civ AI, who keeps wanting to build defence units when the nearest enemy unit is halfway across the map.
Apr 02 01:43:14 (Garison)	on the list of coding for sure
Apr 02 01:43:32 (Revicul)	ah yes, i dont trust those adivsors
Apr 02 01:43:53 (Deathifier)	Plus those sorts of things can be components of the computer AI
Apr 02 01:44:08 (Deathifier)	Many games use parts of the comp AI for player assisted tasks.
Apr 02 01:44:22 (Deathifier)	Which is part of the reason why they suck so much.
Apr 02 01:44:29 (Garison)	i was about to say that
Apr 02 01:45:33 (Deathifier)	We can certainly make things like building construction, unit production and intelligent scouting an option.
Apr 02 01:45:48 (Deathifier)	and tie them into the same systems the computer AI uses.
Apr 02 01:48:02 (Deathifier)	So who has some bright ideas for designing the AI?
Apr 02 01:48:19 (Garison)	i r only non-coder here, so ...umm...no?
Apr 02 01:48:31 (Revicul)	ive only been coding one year ...
Apr 02 01:48:38 (Macroz)	sorry had to talk on phone, catching up
Apr 02 01:49:05 (Deathifier)	Ok so how do you want the AI to play?  (Aside from better then it currently does)
Apr 02 01:49:32 (Garison)	i think we should code each house with a differnt AI
Apr 02 01:49:38 (Garison)	not a generic one
Apr 02 01:49:52 (Deathifier)	That's tricky though
Apr 02 01:49:56 (Macroz)	the defense problem is even harder in EFS as anyone can launch an attack to the other side of the planet in almost no time ;)
Apr 02 01:50:24 (Garison)	each house is going to have a personality, their AI should reflect that
Apr 02 01:50:39 (Macroz)	is scouting fun?
Apr 02 01:50:40 (Deathifier)	Code-wise that's not the best way to do it though :)
Apr 02 01:50:53 (Garison)	ok, scouting is not fun
Apr 02 01:50:53 (Macroz)	I guess in real-life some of it would be done with satellites/ships too
Apr 02 01:51:09 (Deathifier)	It's done in EFS with ships mostly.
Apr 02 01:51:25 (Macroz)	and I think it should be ok to send reconnaissance aircraft/companies to check out
Apr 02 01:51:33 (Garison)	i want to be able to play the symbiot
Apr 02 01:51:46 (Revicul)	you sorta of  can now, with the editor
Apr 02 01:51:57 (Garison)	yea, but only limitedly
Apr 02 01:52:00 (Revicul)	you just cant build new buildings
Apr 02 01:52:04 (Macroz)	symbiots, church, vau, league, more than one sort of rebels and barbarians and lesser houses at least ;)
Apr 02 01:52:06 (Deathifier)	Macroz: There's a difference between direct scouting (ie go scout this area) and intelligent scouting (ie you tell AI to scout the planet or for enemy units)
Apr 02 01:52:57 (Macroz)	Deathifier: What kind of scouting do we want? Do we have line-of-sight or some kind of shroud-of-war?
Apr 02 01:53:35 (Macroz)	for the second it's necessary to have military units and/or satellites/ships
Apr 02 01:53:46 (Deathifier)	The simple system is the scouting radius revealing terrain (if unscouted) or what's there (if it spots it)
Apr 02 01:53:48 (Macroz)	actively watching some place
Apr 02 01:54:10 (Macroz)	ok well that is hard to make for the AI
Apr 02 01:54:30 (Macroz)	unless we change the game structure a bit
Apr 02 01:54:48 (Macroz)	it will still be hard
Apr 02 01:55:02 (Deathifier)	Usually the AI is given a "I can see everything" cheat.
Apr 02 01:55:06 (Macroz)	but generating feasible patrol routes from town to town might be ok and work well enough
Apr 02 01:55:16 (Macroz)	of course we can't give it that {AI Cheating} ;)
Apr 02 01:55:26 (Garison)	what about terrian modifiers for scouting, you can't scout through a mountain range with a tank
Apr 02 01:55:27 (Deathifier)	Because tracking what it can see, what it has seen and where it should go look is very, very, very hard and resource intensive.
Apr 02 01:55:33 (Macroz)	I would love to see my subs sneak ;)
Apr 02 01:55:43 (Macroz)	yes, in 1996 ;)
Apr 02 01:55:49 (Deathifier)	It still is now :D
Apr 02 01:56:03 (Macroz)	but I think it's solvable
Apr 02 01:56:41 (Deathifier)	It is, the main reason you don't see it in games is because doing it requires a lot of effort, it's like a separate component.
Apr 02 01:56:49 (Macroz)	we can have sort of a lesser detail map of enemy strength that the computer maintains for each planet it's interested in
Apr 02 01:56:57 (Garison)	every other person has 1.5mhz puters with 512 ram and about 90 megs harddrive, they can handle it
Apr 02 01:57:01 (Macroz)	that would also be used in deciding where to attack and such
Apr 02 01:57:08 (Revicul)	garison doenst =D
Apr 02 01:57:14 (Garison)	(-o-) Personal Statistics Addon By OverDrive Version 2.5 (-o-)
Apr 02 01:57:14 (Garison)	-- I am using Windows Windows 98 (4.10 - 1998)
Apr 02 01:57:14 (Garison)	-- Running with memory 95/96MB (98.96%) 
Apr 02 01:57:14 (Garison)	-- I am on a Dialup connection.
Apr 02 01:57:15 (Garison)	-- My computer is running a 1-AMD K6-2 {8} @~500.36MHz
Apr 02 01:57:19 (Garison)	You can get it at http://www.adamj.org
Apr 02 01:57:19 (Macroz)	in a few years everyone will... and I don't expect the game to be done before
Apr 02 01:57:40 (Macroz)	I just had to swap my 1 Ghz for XP 1800+ 'cos I guess the MB broke ;-)
Apr 02 01:57:47 (Deathifier)	The effort mainly goes into building the AI.
Apr 02 01:58:01 (Deathifier)	No games have it because it would cost a bomb for little result.
Apr 02 01:58:03 (Macroz)	The effort goes to getting the game work... then AI :-)
Apr 02 01:58:11 (Garison)	well, since we all complained about EFS AI we might as well make it the best feature of EFS2
Apr 02 01:58:17 (Macroz)	no games have it because they have lots of pressures
Apr 02 01:58:27 (Macroz)	it's not the cost of resources except in consoles
Apr 02 01:58:41 (Macroz)	I wonder what they do in Civ III
Apr 02 01:58:54 (Macroz)	that's a peer that can be used for evaluation
Apr 02 01:59:09 (Deathifier)	Well the AI sees all for a start :/
Apr 02 01:59:17 (Macroz)	keeping a low res map for the AI is no problem... in fact it's a requirement for a real AI
Apr 02 01:59:49 (Garison)	do you guys mind a long wait time between turns?
Apr 02 01:59:52 (Deathifier)	It can certainly be done, no problem about that.
Apr 02 01:59:52 (Macroz)	the AI has to remember things from past
Apr 02 02:00:01 (Macroz)	that map is just that
Apr 02 02:00:06 (Deathifier)	Macroz: It depends on what quality of AI you make :)
Apr 02 02:00:19 (Revicul)	and how fast of a computer you have
Apr 02 02:00:25 (Macroz)	I mean it takes less memory than a couple terrain tiles, I would think ;-)
Apr 02 02:00:45 (Macroz)	most power goes into rendering the stuff
Apr 02 02:00:57 (Macroz)	computer AI too
Apr 02 02:01:01 (Deathifier)	The AI doesn't *have* to remember it's past, I don't think the one in EFS does!
Apr 02 02:01:02 (Garison)	Well couldn't you just have 7-10 files (one for each house/league/vau/ect) and have them writen to?
Apr 02 02:01:08 (Revicul)	another thing about the ai is the way they move units
Apr 02 02:01:15 (Macroz)	well for it to be worthwhile it does
Apr 02 02:01:19 (Deathifier)	True
Apr 02 02:01:19 (Revicul)	most of the time they don't move in stacks
Apr 02 02:01:25 (Macroz)	simple stateless machines do not work
Apr 02 02:01:26 (Revicul)	they move one unit ata  time
Apr 02 02:01:28 (Macroz)	as is seen in all games ;)
Apr 02 02:01:40 (Macroz)	that raises another question though... do we want to keep the turns as they are now?
Apr 02 02:01:41 (Deathifier)	It's quite simple to build though :)
Apr 02 02:01:48 (Macroz)	I mean there are alternative turn based solutions
Apr 02 02:02:00 (Macroz)	like simultaneous planning and then turn resolution
Apr 02 02:02:02 (Garison)	true Macroz
Apr 02 02:02:15 (Macroz)	then you could play while the AI/other players plan
Apr 02 02:02:21 (Revicul)	sorta of like lords of the realm
Apr 02 02:02:30 (Macroz)	kind of like Combat Mission ;)
Apr 02 02:02:36 (Revicul)	i think that is was called
Apr 02 02:02:37 (Macroz)	except longer time scales
Apr 02 02:02:42 (Revicul)	havent played that 
Apr 02 02:02:44 (Deathifier)	Very easy to take that into real-time as well.
Apr 02 02:02:58 (Macroz)	I wouldn't go to real-time though
Apr 02 02:03:07 (Garison)	real-time is not a good idea
Apr 02 02:03:09 (Revicul)	they only problems would be when units are trying to attack other units
Apr 02 02:03:11 (Deathifier)	It'd be very interesting to see how it plays.
Apr 02 02:03:13 (Macroz)	more people have time to play turn-based multiplayers than real-time
Apr 02 02:03:18 (Revicul)	if everyone moves at the same time
Apr 02 02:03:23 (Garison)	lets keep it the way it is
Apr 02 02:03:32 (Deathifier)	We can build both onto the same foundation if it's designed right.
Apr 02 02:03:44 (Macroz)	Deathifier: semi-real time is ok, kind of forcing a turn resolution every 5 or 10 minutes
Apr 02 02:03:55 (Macroz)	anyone played VGA Planets?-)
Apr 02 02:04:08 (Garison)	i ment to try VGA planets.
Apr 02 02:04:37 (Macroz)	well the model is that everyone playes the turn, sends to server, server runs game, returns new turns for players
Apr 02 02:04:42 (Macroz)	same but automated
Apr 02 02:04:55 (Deathifier)	Hmm, Kinda like simultaneous play
Apr 02 02:05:01 (Macroz)	can be as fast as new turn per 5 mins or so (depending how long the resolution takes)
Apr 02 02:05:07 (Macroz)	that would be one of the points
Apr 02 02:05:28 (Deathifier)	It gets tricky with complexity though, too many race conditions.
Apr 02 02:05:38 (Revicul)	you can have different option for different gameplay types
Apr 02 02:05:41 (Macroz)	you give orders to stuff and then wait for next turn
Apr 02 02:06:16 (Macroz)	Deathifier: I don't see any, buying the same stuff from a place would mean either gets it or something
Apr 02 02:06:25 (Macroz)	all solvable :)
Apr 02 02:06:33 (Deathifier)	A classic race case in EFS would be taking a city - two groups attack it at the same time, what happens?
Apr 02 02:06:41 (Macroz)	a combat :)
Apr 02 02:06:47 (Deathifier)	Ah, but in what order?
Apr 02 02:06:50 (Garison)	they fight each other winner gets hex
Apr 02 02:06:57 (Macroz)	you mean 2 different sides attack 3rd?
Apr 02 02:07:00 (Garison)	3-way combat
Apr 02 02:07:00 (Deathifier)	Yes
Apr 02 02:07:06 (Garison)	FFA
Apr 02 02:07:08 (Revicul)	i would think you still have to have turn order
Apr 02 02:07:09 (Deathifier)	2 houses attacking a rebel mine.
Apr 02 02:07:12 (Macroz)	3-way combat or 2 in series
Apr 02 02:07:23 (Garison)	i like the FFA myself hehe
Apr 02 02:07:29 (Macroz)	random pick, speed based pick or something better
Apr 02 02:07:32 (Revicul)	otherwise stacks trying to attack each other will move out of eadh others way
Apr 02 02:07:35 (Deathifier)	Revicul: That disadvantages those late in the queue, since they have to wait till next turn to do anything.
Apr 02 02:07:45 (Macroz)	Revicul: without hexes that is no prob
Apr 02 02:07:53 (Revicul)	you could randomize the turn order every year
Apr 02 02:08:00 (Garison)	based on ?
Apr 02 02:08:00 (Macroz)	besides movement & attack can be different actions
Apr 02 02:08:10 (Deathifier)	Revicul: People like order though :/
Apr 02 02:08:36 (Garison)	i like order! stay the way it is :P
Apr 02 02:08:37 (Macroz)	either its the same all the time or all at the same time :)
Apr 02 02:08:59 (Deathifier)	The phases have to merge though
Apr 02 02:09:20 (Garison)	lets worry about the map itself and hold a pole in a few months.
Apr 02 02:09:22 (Macroz)	well merging can be done like using small iterative steps
Apr 02 02:09:25 (Garison)	poll
Apr 02 02:09:36 (Macroz)	miniturns or action points or whatever
Apr 02 02:09:58 (Deathifier)	Macroz: That greatly increases the traffic in a PBEM though.
Apr 02 02:10:11 (Macroz)	how's that?
Apr 02 02:10:28 (Deathifier)	If you have multiple phases per turn, thats more turns per full turn.
Apr 02 02:10:41 (Deathifier)	If you don't, it's just the same problem but done more frequently :)
Apr 02 02:10:52 (Macroz)	that's just how the server works up things internally
Apr 02 02:10:53 (Garison)	I bring you to hemmingways perfect philosify 
Apr 02 02:11:01 (Garison)	K.I.S.S
Apr 02 02:11:08 (Garison)	Keep it simple stupid!
Apr 02 02:11:16 (Macroz)	like for (int i = 0; i ( 10; ++i) move_unit_a_bit();
Apr 02 02:11:19 (Deathifier)	The thing is, people will want to act in the current turn if something unexpected happens.
Apr 02 02:11:38 (Macroz)	yep that's different in simultaneous execution
Apr 02 02:11:51 (Garison)	who has played SE4 ?
Apr 02 02:11:52 (Deathifier)	eg an unspotted unit is moving into you and you into it and they are at peace
Apr 02 02:12:07 (Macroz)	they just stop... not a real prob
Apr 02 02:12:15 (Macroz)	you don't auto-attack friends or something ;)
Apr 02 02:12:18 (Deathifier)	in EFS, currently one side gets to move fully, the other gets a message, in the new system they'd both stop and get a msg
Apr 02 02:12:21 (Garison)	what about SE4 style of simultaneous play?
Apr 02 02:12:23 (Deathifier)	but it's delayed a year...
Apr 02 02:12:25 (Macroz)	you only attack the next turn when you want
Apr 02 02:12:46 (Macroz)	well for the other side it is delayed now too
Apr 02 02:12:58 (Macroz)	say unspotted moves... then you move spot kill
Apr 02 02:13:07 (Macroz)	the unspotted never got a chance to attack itself
Apr 02 02:13:19 (Macroz)	this time you get
Apr 02 02:13:36 (Deathifier)	Well you both get the option of doing something
Apr 02 02:13:42 (Macroz)	yeah
Apr 02 02:13:51 (Deathifier)	More likely it will be an endless chase if one unit is weaker :)
Apr 02 02:14:08 (Macroz)	if the unit is faster it will get away
Apr 02 02:14:21 (Deathifier)	If they are the same speed (which is common in EFS)?
Apr 02 02:14:32 (Macroz)	but could be that it doesn't move and then you stumble upon it anyway... but then you have declared to attack it
Apr 02 02:14:59 (Macroz)	that was just the unexpected encounter scenario
Apr 02 02:15:14 *	Garison brings attention to his previous remark about SE4 simultaneous play
Apr 02 02:15:23 (Macroz)	in the current game one of the sides is at an advantage
Apr 02 02:15:26 (Macroz)	well how does that work?
Apr 02 02:15:49 (Deathifier)	Macroz: True, a good system will be hard to design though.
Apr 02 02:15:53 (Garison)	basicly you all move the same time, however it is turn based...ok that was the worst explaination ever
Apr 02 02:16:03 (Deathifier)	Yes it was :)
Apr 02 02:16:05 (Macroz)	Deathifier: yep but we need to consider what's best
Apr 02 02:16:11 (Garison)	has anyone played SE4?
Apr 02 02:16:25 (Deathifier)	I don't think so, I have Space Empires 3 though.
Apr 02 02:16:38 (Macroz)	nope, I don' like Massive Blaster V, VI, VII, VII, IX, X techs ;)
Apr 02 02:17:02 (Garison)	massive sheild generators rock
Apr 02 02:17:15 (Macroz)	there's the demo
Apr 02 02:17:21 (Garison)	yea, go DL the demo
Apr 02 02:18:19 (Deathifier)	There's a gold version out too IIRC.
Apr 02 02:18:37 (Macroz)	the turn type isn't something where one system is clearly better, although the VGA planets model is to me the more extensible
Apr 02 02:18:41 (Garison)	http://www.malfador.com/se4.html
Apr 02 02:18:53 (Macroz)	more flexible
Apr 02 02:19:01 (Deathifier)	Macroz: I like the idea of incremental calculations for turns, it just delays reactions.
Apr 02 02:19:23 (Macroz)	not really, as it happens now too... for the other player whose turn it's not
Apr 02 02:19:24 (Deathifier)	But as you said the delay is for all, which is definitely better than now :)
Apr 02 02:19:37 (Macroz)	yep... how long should turn be anyway?
Apr 02 02:19:49 (Macroz)	1 year is kind of long for some thing 1 month is a short while for others
Apr 02 02:19:52 (Garison)	Death do you have MAX?
Apr 02 02:20:01 (Deathifier)	Garison: Probably not
Apr 02 02:20:05 (Deathifier)	maybe 6 months?
Apr 02 02:20:18 (Deathifier)	Wait, the game {MAX: Mechanised Assault and Exploration}?
Apr 02 02:20:26 (Garison)	yea
Apr 02 02:20:27 (Deathifier)	Yeah I have that :)
Apr 02 02:20:31 (Macroz)	I wouldn't notice any diff. if the turn in EFS was one month
Apr 02 02:20:38 (Macroz)	except that if the Reagent is set to be 10 years ;)
Apr 02 02:20:57 (Garison)	what about a turn system like real-time in MAX
Apr 02 02:21:05 (Deathifier)	Macroz: It's more a movement thing, how much can a unit/city do in a time period?
Apr 02 02:21:06 (Macroz)	any fiction that requires the reagent to be elected for 10 years?
Apr 02 02:21:08 (Garison)	thats close to the one in Se4
Apr 02 02:21:20 (Deathifier)	Garison: It's basically turn based real-time play...
Apr 02 02:21:21 (Macroz)	Deathifier: we could even use exact same values ;)
Apr 02 02:21:47 (Garison)	yea, i liked that system
Apr 02 02:21:57 (Deathifier)	Garison: That doesn't work well for PBEM, since everyone would have to be on at once to play the real-time part :D
Apr 02 02:22:04 (Macroz)	real-time play has one bad thing... every player has to be online at the same time to play the turn
Apr 02 02:22:13 (Garison)	true
Apr 02 02:22:31 (Macroz)	but there is on{e} bad {thing} with planning... it doesn't work for long turns
Apr 02 02:22:32 (Garison)	but if you have it like SE4 did, and have both systems of play it would be cool :P
Apr 02 02:22:45 (Deathifier)	Should we change how PBEM works?  Rather than passing turns should everyone do their turn and hand it to a central person or even a dedicated server?
Apr 02 02:23:16 (Macroz)	for a networked multiplayer game, that model is the ideal to me
Apr 02 02:23:16 (Deathifier)	Garison: That's related more to having pure real-time and pure turn-based options, which would be nifty.
Apr 02 02:23:38 (Macroz)	(well not for real-time games)
Apr 02 02:23:53 (Garison)	ok, what is the computer moved your units in the same why you did when you planed your turn.
Apr 02 02:24:02 (Garison)	unless someone said that.
Apr 02 02:24:09 (Garison)	i've been half-distracted
Apr 02 02:24:10 (Macroz)	yes that would be it... moving like planned
Apr 02 02:24:26 (Macroz)	there could be sort of rules to follow like attack if meet enemy
Apr 02 02:24:36 (Garison)	did i just fall on the solution?
Apr 02 02:24:39 (Garison)	wow, that sucks
Apr 02 02:24:41 (Deathifier)	You plan everything out, maybe even get a simulation of it, and then commit.
Apr 02 02:24:44 (Garison)	now i can't take credit! :P
Apr 02 02:24:53 (Macroz)	the longer the turn time/moves the more we need such rules
Apr 02 02:25:07 (Macroz)	simulation of combats is what's in VGA planets
Apr 02 02:25:35 (Deathifier)	Macroz: Simulation as in them actually seeing the moves (rather than just a line saying "i'll go here")
Apr 02 02:25:48 (Macroz)	nod seeing them move as a front
Apr 02 02:26:06 (Deathifier)	Combat resolution will be automatic like it is now, any other system is really not suited to PBEM.
Apr 02 02:26:07 (Macroz)	say doing a pincer attack and seeing the forces meet the enemy line at the same time ;-)
Apr 02 02:26:34 (Macroz)	but I meant you could see simulated results of the combat (which may not be true as they are not the real result)
Apr 02 02:26:45 (Deathifier)	Macroz: Yeah, that's that plan, but the enemy might move a certain way with it's own plan before you reach it :)
Apr 02 02:27:01 (Garison)	thats why its simulated instead of the real thing
Apr 02 02:27:02 (Macroz)	yep, that's where the 'scripts' come in
Apr 02 02:27:06 (Deathifier)	Yes, we can simluate combat resolution too.
Apr 02 02:27:25 (Deathifier)	It would definitely stop people wanting to restart their turn, since they don't know the actual outcome :)
Apr 02 02:27:42 (Macroz)	we will need some kind of rules for the AI (assistant too) so that would be it
Apr 02 02:27:56 (Deathifier)	All sorta melds together
Apr 02 02:27:58 (Macroz)	there is no restarting, and no hacks... ;)
Apr 02 02:28:17 (Garison)	all AI assist happens in a seperate phase
Apr 02 02:28:23 (Garison)	after the round
Apr 02 02:28:31 (Deathifier)	Well stopping restarting is tricky, stopping hacks is impossible on the client, but easy on the server :)
Apr 02 02:28:38 (Macroz)	of course if done well you can play your turn several times (simulated) and pick the best outcome
Apr 02 02:28:56 (Macroz)	if all the real action happens in the server... you cannot cheat
Apr 02 02:29:00 (Deathifier)	Macroz: Yeah, but the true outcome is determined elsewhere
Apr 02 02:29:15 (Garison)	thats why no one can cheat, just "run the numbers"
Apr 02 02:29:22 (Deathifier)	Being able to see the projected results is good though.
Apr 02 02:29:27 (Macroz)	you can only alter what your orders are
Apr 02 02:29:43 (Macroz)	yes, so are we getting into somewhere?
Apr 02 02:29:49 (Deathifier)	I hope so :)
Apr 02 02:29:53 (Macroz)	I mean does this sound like a decent system we should try?
Apr 02 02:29:59 (Garison)	i think so
Apr 02 02:30:02 (Deathifier)	To me it does
Apr 02 02:30:10 (Garison)	what about single-player?
Apr 02 02:30:11 (Macroz)	the model does have a few benefits not sdiscussed here but that I researched for the SPOC game
Apr 02 02:30:14 (Deathifier)	it can also be made purely real-time for fun :)
Apr 02 02:30:31 (Macroz)	Deathifier very fast turns yes (if fast enough computer to process AI) 
Apr 02 02:30:41 (Revicul)	i have to get ready to go out
Apr 02 02:30:45 (Revicul)	ill talk to you guys later
Apr 02 02:30:46 (Deathifier)	The option is there though
Apr 02 02:30:49 (Garison)	Bye Rev.
Apr 02 02:30:50 (Deathifier)	ok, cya Revicul
Apr 02 02:30:59 ---	Revicul-goingou is now known as Revicul-out
Apr 02 02:31:23 (Deathifier)	It would make unspotted units very valuable too.
Apr 02 02:31:36 (Deathifier)	Since the projected results wouldn't factor them in.
Apr 02 02:31:49 (Garison)	wow, this is so realistic
Apr 02 02:31:54 (Garison)	compared to before
Apr 02 02:32:00 (Deathifier)	And the one infantry attack before major assault would be useless :)
Apr 02 02:32:11 (Macroz)	In SPOC the server has a database of the current world. When going to next turn the simulation is run. That is a series of programs that modify the database... what do I get from that? The game is a real relational database with well defined (and reliable) operation and it can work as an interface for separate phases in the simulation written in any language (they just need access to DB and know its format)
Apr 02 02:32:48 (Macroz)	what I did write was a program to create neat C++ classes to interface the database in object oriented fashion
Apr 02 02:33:01 (Macroz)	I have now movement phase done, combat phase almost
Apr 02 02:33:06 (Garison)	once again you lost the non-coder
Apr 02 02:33:09 (Macroz)	I can add as many of those as I like
Apr 02 02:33:30 (Deathifier)	Garison: It just means any game can use it provided it interfaces with the DB properly.
Apr 02 02:33:40 (Macroz)	I use MySQL now, I can use any MySQL API for programming the turns
Apr 02 02:33:50 (Garison)	thanks death
Apr 02 02:33:51 (Macroz)	my stuff works on top of the C API
Apr 02 02:33:59 (Deathifier)	The thing is, do we need a central server for that?
Apr 02 02:34:04 (Macroz)	(MySQL is free, portable)
Apr 02 02:34:16 (Deathifier)	Obviously it is much more secure than individuals, but who can support it?
Apr 02 02:34:22 (Macroz)	well anyone can run it on their home computer, Windows or Linux or anything
Apr 02 02:34:27 (Garison)	for "professional games" you would want a dedicate server
Apr 02 02:34:32 (Macroz)	as said it's free, portable ;)
Apr 02 02:34:52 (Deathifier)	It probably needs refinement to fit in the model that we need.
Apr 02 02:34:56 (Macroz)	MMORPGs and the like may use DBMSs... not regular games (for many reasons, mostly no time, no money, mo knowledge)
Apr 02 02:35:05 (Deathifier)	Remember that the first thing people will say is "Wait, thats too different!"
Apr 02 02:35:24 (Macroz)	that's because most game coders have not studied enough ;)
Apr 02 02:35:26 (Garison)	well, thats why we are EFS2 and not EFSclone :P
Apr 02 02:35:30 (Deathifier)	Macroz: Yes, because online games have a central system.
Apr 02 02:35:39 (Deathifier)	Garison: It's actually EFS Clone :)
Apr 02 02:35:47 (Macroz)	all multiplayer games need one designated server... which can host multiple games too
Apr 02 02:35:49 (Garison)	not anymore /;p
Apr 02 02:36:00 (Deathifier)	We are cloning the concept.
Apr 02 02:36:04 (Garison)	true
Apr 02 02:36:05 (Macroz)	a single-player game would just have the server running on your own computer
Apr 02 02:36:19 (Macroz)	When you play...
Apr 02 02:36:27 (Deathifier)	Macroz: That is true, but it means someone in the PBEM game needs to be a server
Apr 02 02:36:40 (Deathifier)	Which makes it less secure (ie the server can hack things).
Apr 02 02:36:42 (Macroz)	well that's someone that gets the turns, yes
Apr 02 02:36:53 (Deathifier)	It should work fine though
Apr 02 02:36:57 (Macroz)	now you have to trust everyone ;)
Apr 02 02:37:11 (Garison)	Thats why we have a "company server" and we can rent to the millions of EFS2/clone players we get and make millions :P
Apr 02 02:37:14 (Macroz)	you can always have a trusted third party maintaining the server :-)
Apr 02 02:37:31 (Macroz)	Garison: that too if there were millions of players ;-)
Apr 02 02:37:34 (Deathifier)	Macroz: Yeah a dedicated server, but someone has to maintain it.
Apr 02 02:37:55 (Deathifier)	And it incurs costs (like bandwidth).
Apr 02 02:38:04 (Macroz)	Dedicated only if someone wants to maintain it... now just someone runs the server programs once per turn :-)
Apr 02 02:38:10 (Garison)	i was j/k, but it does bring up a question, are we selling this game when it is done? and whats my cut LOL j/k
Apr 02 02:38:45 (Deathifier)	Garison: It depends on what we end up with, I would strongly suggest keeping it free though, if only because a huge pile of legal crap comes in if we want to sell it.
Apr 02 02:39:18 (Garison)	true, i think its going to be to big though
Apr 02 02:39:18 (Macroz)	only if we use copyrighted stuff like Holistic names... that can be passed as mod though
Apr 02 02:39:31 (Macroz)	seriously, this will anyway be a huge project
Apr 02 02:39:43 (Deathifier)	Macroz: I doubt you could pass anything related to our project as a mod to EFS :)
Apr 02 02:39:52 (Garison)	hehe
Apr 02 02:39:58 (Macroz)	no the EFS mod would be to the project ;)
Apr 02 02:40:04 (Deathifier)	Hehehe
Apr 02 02:40:11 (Macroz)	B5, Star Trek, Star Wars... whatever people desire
Apr 02 02:40:23 (Macroz)	just that there are sufficient features to implement EFS
Apr 02 02:40:33 (Deathifier)	It will take a nice flexible and easy to use design to enable all that :)
Apr 02 02:40:47 (Garison)	that can be done
Apr 02 02:40:49 (Macroz)	Flexibility is my middle name ;)
Apr 02 02:41:00 (Garison)	jsut make sure all your graphics are in a popular format
Apr 02 02:41:10 (Deathifier)	binary :
Apr 02 02:41:19 (Macroz)	well again seriously: we need to start small
Apr 02 02:41:35 (Macroz)	I will be developing the game stuff I've done now for the project further
Apr 02 02:41:44 (Macroz)	if that can be used for a game such as EFS2, great
Apr 02 02:42:14 (Deathifier)	We'll probably use a modified system though, depending on what you end up with.
Apr 02 02:42:48 (Macroz)	if it's developed for EFS2 it will need no modifications ;)
Apr 02 02:43:52 (Deathifier)	We need to work out file formats and stuff too.
Apr 02 02:44:06 (Garison)	that is between the coders and the artists
Apr 02 02:44:11 (Macroz)	well things like SDL_image support TGA, PNG, JPG... need no more
Apr 02 02:44:15 (Garison)	and the artists aren't here 
Apr 02 02:44:20 (Deathifier)	For data files
Apr 02 02:44:28 (Macroz)	for files... everything in text files except sounds and graphics
Apr 02 02:44:46 (Deathifier)	It's the format of those text files I'm talking about :)
Apr 02 02:44:52 (Garison)	.txt
Apr 02 02:45:06 (Deathifier)	Garison: We can rename them anything we want.
Apr 02 02:45:10 (Macroz)	IF the game would work in the DBMS ... that's the format
Apr 02 02:45:20 (Macroz)	whatever loads the stuff in it defines the format
Apr 02 02:45:29 (Macroz)	like my 'generator' program generates a random universe into the DB
Apr 02 02:45:42 (Macroz)	the format is the database tables
Apr 02 02:45:53 (Deathifier)	That's direct access though
Apr 02 02:46:04 (Macroz)	I do have a txt file with one name per line ;-)
Apr 02 02:46:14 (Macroz)	for star and ship names
Apr 02 02:46:22 (Deathifier)	What might be better is our own editor
Apr 02 02:46:37 (Macroz)	yeah an editor is cool but often as big a job as the entire game :)
Apr 02 02:46:40 (Deathifier)	Which reads/writes to text files that the DBMS can load.
Apr 02 02:46:49 (Macroz)	MySQLGUI is enough for me ;-)
Apr 02 02:47:06 (Deathifier)	Not everyone will want to learn SQL just to mod the game :/
Apr 02 02:47:19 (Macroz)	again if the DB is the interface then the program can be written by anyone in any language that interfaces with it
Apr 02 02:47:29 (Macroz)	SQL or weird binary format?-)
Apr 02 02:47:33 (Macroz)	I'd pick SQL any day ;-)
Apr 02 02:47:43 (Deathifier)	Go wacky binary formats!
Apr 02 02:48:06 (Macroz)	just document the database and its use and every formula
Apr 02 02:48:12 (Deathifier)	Anyway, there needs to be some form of raw file a human can read, edit and save without trouble.
Apr 02 02:48:28 (Macroz)	I would think a program does that report
Apr 02 02:48:31 (Deathifier)	If you don't have that, you need an editor :)
Apr 02 02:48:49 (Macroz)	it's simple enough to read a table, output to text file and read it back
Apr 02 02:48:59 (Macroz)	even put that to a spreadsheet in the between
Apr 02 02:49:11 (Deathifier)	It is, But we'd want to do that automatically, not tell the modders to do it.
Apr 02 02:49:27 (Macroz)	they wouldn't have to do the program as we make it
Apr 02 02:49:30 (Deathifier)	That way the definition files are stored on the HD, and easy to mod.
Apr 02 02:49:35 (Macroz)	we need to mod the game for EFS, you know ;-)
Apr 02 02:49:59 (Macroz)	well there are two parts... the generation part and modifying an existing database/game
Apr 02 02:50:13 (Macroz)	I would think most want to generate new games from zero... just output to database
Apr 02 02:50:21 (Deathifier)	Can we set it up so the DB loads the data from files on statup?
Apr 02 02:50:25 (Macroz)	SQL for modifying data inside the DB... no real need for editor
Apr 02 02:50:32 (Macroz)	yep, that's what the generators are for
Apr 02 02:50:33 (Deathifier)	Well that solves most of the problems
Apr 02 02:51:04 (Deathifier)	That makes it easy to separate mods.
Apr 02 02:51:08 (Macroz)	the only bad side to DBs is that people have to install one... which is a piece of cake really
Apr 02 02:51:22 (Deathifier)	And we can also pack the mod data into a savegame if it isn't too large.
Apr 02 02:51:29 (Macroz)	I also had designed a fake database for single-player games of SPOC but that was harder to do than use a real DBMS
Apr 02 02:51:52 (Macroz)	I guess databases could be spit to a file and moved to another comp
Apr 02 02:51:55 (Deathifier)	Macroz: We can custom build a simple one, I've found most DBMS programs a pain (they love chomping on resources).
Apr 02 02:52:15 (Macroz)	it could even be supported by the database, not sure... we can always read & write it ourselves
Apr 02 02:52:36 (Deathifier)	Well a simple DB system would just read the files in, check them for errors and store it in an interal object.
Apr 02 02:52:44 (Deathifier)	That object holds all the game data :)
Apr 02 02:52:57 (Macroz)	yeah it's just a matter of iterating all tables and rows and fields
Apr 02 02:53:00 (Deathifier)	We don't need complex functionality.
Apr 02 02:53:14 (Macroz)	that's one feature for moving a game from DB to other
Apr 02 02:53:32 (Deathifier)	complex functionality?
Apr 02 02:53:34 (Macroz)	the DB handles the normal saves ;)
Apr 02 02:53:49 (Deathifier)	The data object can effectively be the DB.
Apr 02 02:53:53 (Macroz)	yep
Apr 02 02:54:16 (Deathifier)	Much better than using an external DB manager IMO.
Apr 02 02:54:32 (Macroz)	what do you mean?
Apr 02 02:54:45 (Deathifier)	After all, the download for the EFS editors (which use borland) is actually larger than most of EFS's core files.
Apr 02 02:55:04 (Deathifier)	Simple - there can be a LOT of hassle getting external DB support up.
Apr 02 02:55:20 (Macroz)	external DB support?
Apr 02 02:55:32 (Deathifier)	eg you want to use MySQL.
Apr 02 02:55:42 (Deathifier)	Requires an external DBMS
Apr 02 02:55:42 (Garison)	hey guys, i'm hungery and need breakfast, talk to you guys in a bit ?
Apr 02 02:55:44 (Macroz)	I mean the server accesses the DB directly through a local socket most of the time... the players only contact the server, never touch the DB
Apr 02 02:56:39 (Macroz)	Deathifier: you had some other situation in mind?
Apr 02 02:56:58 (Deathifier)	Just build a simple DB into the game itself.
Apr 02 02:57:31 (Macroz)	yeah well that's usually not worth it
Apr 02 02:57:49 (Macroz)	doing a real DBMS level of quality is impossible ;)
Apr 02 02:57:58 (Deathifier)	'simple' means something :)
Apr 02 02:58:05 (Macroz)	besides the idea is to do as little work as possible
Apr 02 02:58:27 (Deathifier)	Well we need a data object of some sort to store the game data.
Apr 02 02:58:48 (Macroz)	now you are talking about object oriented design?
Apr 02 02:58:54 (Deathifier)	Yes
Apr 02 02:59:05 (Macroz)	That kind of data object can be mapped into the entire database
Apr 02 02:59:06 (Deathifier)	the DBMS is similar, except it's an object outside the program
Apr 02 02:59:20 (Macroz)	that's just a very much transparent persistency for the objects
Apr 02 02:59:23 (Deathifier)	Macroz: That's right, but then it requires everyone to have DBMS softwre running.
Apr 02 02:59:39 (Macroz)	yes but that's a very small cost as I said MySQL is portable and free ;-)
Apr 02 02:59:50 (Macroz)	and only servers need it (for single-player you need it)
Apr 02 03:00:01 (Macroz)	installation ain't a big task either
Apr 02 03:00:04 (Deathifier)	So how do the players playing their turn get the game data?
Apr 02 03:00:10 (Macroz)	just can't distribute it with the game unless we buy a license
Apr 02 03:00:21 (Macroz)	they download from the server
Apr 02 03:00:32 (Deathifier)	And what does it get loaded into?
Apr 02 03:00:33 (Macroz)	they can cache some of it in files on their own comp
Apr 02 03:00:48 (Macroz)	files, local caches
Apr 02 03:01:15 (Macroz)	I guess the installation has most graphics in it anyway
Apr 02 03:01:28 (Macroz)	just it might be ok to cache all planet terrain maps instead of downloading with every turn
Apr 02 03:01:28 (Deathifier)	Graphics is a major % of size :)
Apr 02 03:01:47 (Deathifier)	The thing is we need discrete chunks people can e-mail out.
Apr 02 03:01:54 (Macroz)	yep, don't expect it downloaded in every turn
Apr 02 03:02:01 (Deathifier)	That chunk is the saved game file.
Apr 02 03:02:05 (Macroz)	the discrete chunk is the moves
Apr 02 03:02:10 (Macroz)	the plan actually
Apr 02 03:02:16 (Deathifier)	Well on upload it is
Apr 02 03:02:20 (Macroz)	that the client program can send automatically
Apr 02 03:02:28 (Deathifier)	on download it's the world state as that player knows it.
Apr 02 03:02:29 (Macroz)	or put into a zip into the dir the user wants
Apr 02 03:02:49 (Deathifier)	Either way, it's still data the game has to load.
Apr 02 03:02:52 (Macroz)	the first time you go somewhere it downloads the world as you see it
Apr 02 03:03:01 (Macroz)	that is stored into your computer
Apr 02 03:03:15 (Deathifier)	Macroz: This isn't an always on environment.
Apr 02 03:03:17 (Macroz)	if you want to play on some other you either copy that stuff too or download it again from the server
Apr 02 03:03:31 (Macroz)	I mean it's in the turn file for you
Apr 02 03:03:58 (Deathifier)	It's ridiculous to assume the host of the game is going to have a 24/7 connection, or want to stream you data repeatedly if you play different mods.
Apr 02 03:03:59 (Macroz)	and you either connect to the server to get it or the server makes a package for you that is for example mailed to you
Apr 02 03:04:26 (Macroz)	the server that serves the files can be anything or passed in a mail...
Apr 02 03:04:34 (Deathifier)	It needs to be kept somewhat similar to the PBEM of now.
Apr 02 03:04:45 (Macroz)	the server contains the DB and process the turns into files
Apr 02 03:04:47 (Macroz)	it is
Apr 02 03:04:52 (Deathifier)	The server runs a turn, the server produces a save for each person.
Apr 02 03:05:00 (Macroz)	yep
Apr 02 03:05:12 (Deathifier)	That save still has to contain data on units, buildings, etc.
Apr 02 03:05:21 (Macroz)	that save should contain all info you see
Apr 02 03:05:26 (Deathifier)	Yes
Apr 02 03:05:27 (Macroz)	except those you already have
Apr 02 03:05:31 (Deathifier)	Well
Apr 02 03:05:34 (Deathifier)	No
Apr 02 03:05:48 (Deathifier)	It should be an independant state from previous saves.
Apr 02 03:05:58 (Macroz)	at the start of the game it's reasonable to give the terrains in the first transfer only
Apr 02 03:06:00 (Macroz)	not every turn
Apr 02 03:06:04 (Deathifier)	Containing basically the state of the world as the player knows it.
Apr 02 03:06:19 (Macroz)	the full state only if the player requests it
Apr 02 03:06:29 (Deathifier)	But how do you store transient data like that?
Apr 02 03:06:33 (Macroz)	there is no need to transfer everything every turn
Apr 02 03:06:38 (Macroz)	save the stuff in a file?
Apr 02 03:06:50 (Macroz)	have a dir for every game you are playing
Apr 02 03:06:51 (Deathifier)	It could get very messy.
Apr 02 03:06:54 (Macroz)	nope
Apr 02 03:07:21 (Deathifier)	Plus it opens up problems if an existing file is corrupted
Apr 02 03:07:28 (Macroz)	well that is the case
Apr 02 03:07:34 (Macroz)	you can have /gfx for all graphics, /terrain etc ;)
Apr 02 03:07:50 (Macroz)	but so it is now... you're screwed if you corrupt the save
Apr 02 03:08:00 (Deathifier)	That kind of stuff should be in a mod package you d/l before the game...
Apr 02 03:08:03 (Macroz)	but the server can always send you the file again in that case
Apr 02 03:08:14 (Macroz)	well the terrain for each planet is not
Apr 02 03:08:17 (Macroz)	that is a one time transfer
Apr 02 03:08:24 (Macroz)	even some graphics can be a one time transfer for that game
Apr 02 03:08:28 (Macroz)	say every players photo
Apr 02 03:08:36 (Deathifier)	That isn't a lot of data though, just a series of numbers.
Apr 02 03:08:51 (Deathifier)	You shouldn't be transferring graphics at all!
Apr 02 03:08:54 (Macroz)	why insist that everything is transfered al the time?
Apr 02 03:09:31 (Macroz)	well say the mod is updated... you could get the updated files from the server without ever knowing it/bothering with it?
Apr 02 03:09:33 (Deathifier)	It allows for a bigger range of options.
Apr 02 03:09:42 (Deathifier)	Thats a different system though
Apr 02 03:09:46 (Macroz)	what does it really allow?
Apr 02 03:09:59 (Macroz)	transfering all vs. transfering only changed
Apr 02 03:10:13 (Deathifier)	Because the data staying the same should be miniscule.
Apr 02 03:10:25 (Macroz)	the real model is a hybrid... transfering unit positions every time (likely to move) transfering terrain only when changed (change less often)
Apr 02 03:10:33 (Deathifier)	If we have deformable or changing worlds, the terrain could change frequently.
Apr 02 03:10:45 (Deathifier)	The only other static thing is the cities...
Apr 02 03:10:46 (Macroz)	yeah like earthquake per month terraforming a planet ;-)
Apr 02 03:11:00 (Macroz)	star positions, jumpgates...
Apr 02 03:11:03 (Deathifier)	I mean like forests growing, or bombardment causing small changes.
Apr 02 03:11:21 (Macroz)	star age, star names, system names, ...
Apr 02 03:11:25 (Deathifier)	Stuff like star locations and jumpgates is tiny though
Apr 02 03:11:39 (Deathifier)	and that data should be in the mod
Apr 02 03:11:41 (Macroz)	well I bet I can make a few megs of that stuff
Apr 02 03:12:07 (Macroz)	well if you have a random universe in a mod you don't have the star names in the mod... only candidates
Apr 02 03:12:12 (Deathifier)	If you make a few megs out of compressed text, there is obviously a very serious flaw in what you sending :)
Apr 02 03:12:15 (Macroz)	the actual stars names in the game will come from the server
Apr 02 03:12:29 (Macroz)	100x100 map for 1000 planets?
Apr 02 03:12:45 (Deathifier)	Thats what I refer to as a "flaw"
Apr 02 03:13:09 (Macroz)	that's 10M to height data only
Apr 02 03:13:09 (Deathifier)	Who do you expect to manage a 1000 planet system with 100x100 maps??
Apr 02 03:13:39 (Macroz)	well 100 systems, 10 planets/moons each... a fraction are terran-like but still you have the maps for all
Apr 02 03:14:00 (Deathifier)	It's simply too big.
Apr 02 03:14:12 (Macroz)	that's what some people want ;)
Apr 02 03:14:26 (Deathifier)	I think a poll would be needed to determine that :)
Apr 02 03:14:28 (Macroz)	with 10 systems it's still a megabyte for height data
Apr 02 03:14:41 (Deathifier)	Uh, why do we have height data?
Apr 02 03:14:42 (Macroz)	besides the system is scalable to the unverse size the player wants
Apr 02 03:14:58 (Macroz)	separate height and terrain data makes sense ;)
Apr 02 03:15:08 (Deathifier)	Only if the terrain has height
Apr 02 03:15:17 (Deathifier)	which it currently doesn't :)
Apr 02 03:15:26 (Macroz)	yep currently not but even Alpha Centauri has it
Apr 02 03:15:38 (Macroz)	it certainly is a good feature to me
Apr 02 03:15:48 (Deathifier)	Alpha Centauri is played on one planet.
Apr 02 03:15:49 (Macroz)	but even without... you are going to spend a megabyte to the maps
Apr 02 03:16:07 (Macroz)	why insist transfering them every turn?
Apr 02 03:16:15 (Deathifier)	So how does EFS transmit all the map data in each save file?
Apr 02 03:16:19 (Macroz)	it is so easy to change?
Apr 02 03:16:35 (Macroz)	efs saves are 500k
Apr 02 03:16:41 (Deathifier)	No
Apr 02 03:16:44 (Macroz)	well 200k-500k it seems
Apr 02 03:16:46 (Deathifier)	I have 200k ones
Apr 02 03:16:58 (Macroz)	I got 528k one too
Apr 02 03:17:04 (Deathifier)	It only ramps up if you pack it full of units or lots and lots of planets.
Apr 02 03:17:09 (Macroz)	of 34 saves only a couple are 200k
Apr 02 03:17:28 (Macroz)	ramps up yes so don't transfer everything ;-)
Apr 02 03:17:36 (Deathifier)	I have 22 saves, all under 300k :D
Apr 02 03:17:58 (Macroz)	I don't want to argue too much but I don't understand why we need to transfer everything all the time :)
Apr 02 03:18:29 (Macroz)	I have over 500 units in one planet in one continent, I guess that counts
Apr 02 03:18:57 (Deathifier)	Well one of the keys things the project is aiming at is reducing micromanagement.
Apr 02 03:19:00 (Macroz)	if the player wants it (he moves to a new comp every time) ok sure
Apr 02 03:19:09 (Macroz)	yes but we can't count on that reducing the size of the save file
Apr 02 03:19:20 (Deathifier)	If you force the transfer of everything at once, keeping that transfer small becomes a key factor everywhere else.
Apr 02 03:19:27 (Deathifier)	You can't just make everything bloated.
Apr 02 03:19:33 (Macroz)	well yes that is true
Apr 02 03:19:45 (Macroz)	but we aren't the fools who would bloat it in the first place, are we?
Apr 02 03:19:57 (Deathifier)	We are the fools who have never built something of this scale before :)
Apr 02 03:19:59 (Macroz)	zipping also helps
Apr 02 03:20:12 (Macroz)	yep that's true ;)
Apr 02 03:20:24 (Macroz)	but we know enough of this to argue about it so we are on the good side, don't you think ;)
Apr 02 03:20:36 (Macroz)	thinking about optimizing that at this point is pointless though :)
Apr 02 03:20:42 (Deathifier)	Anyway I just think it would be nice to have the possibility of complete, discrete packages.
Apr 02 03:20:53 (Macroz)	possible yes
Apr 02 03:21:07 (Macroz)	I want the player to be able to play on any comp so he will get a complete package when he wants
Apr 02 03:21:08 (Deathifier)	After all, a discrete package is easier to implement then a streaming one.
Apr 02 03:21:18 (Macroz)	but if he has a modem he doesn't have to get everything, that's what I think
Apr 02 03:21:38 (Deathifier)	So how about we come to a compromise for now and do both, since one basically builds on the other.
Apr 02 03:21:50 (Macroz)	streaming... well that would only check dates/simple hash to see if the file has changed
Apr 02 03:22:04 (Macroz)	yes the change based management is for some files only
Apr 02 03:22:08 (Macroz)	that are mostly static
Apr 02 03:22:17 (Deathifier)	To do the checking requires both systems to be on at the same time though.
Apr 02 03:22:32 (Macroz)	well we don't have to use time, that was an example
Apr 02 03:22:40 (Macroz)	a simple hash function based on the contents works best anyway
Apr 02 03:22:46 (Macroz)	if they don't match, transfer
Apr 02 03:22:57 (Macroz)	or if you pick the option 'send all' sends all :)
Apr 02 03:23:01 (Deathifier)	The server only has the servers data, not whats on the players machine :)
Apr 02 03:23:14 (Macroz)	the player can send the hash results while sending the turn
Apr 02 03:23:24 (Deathifier)	One of the key flaws I think exists is that the server and client both have to be on for it to function.
Apr 02 03:23:29 (Macroz)	they are small anyway
Apr 02 03:23:40 (Macroz)	not quite
Apr 02 03:23:51 (Macroz)	that would work better but doesn't have to be
Apr 02 03:24:00 (Deathifier)	Every time something comes up it always seems to initially assume they are both on :)
Apr 02 03:24:15 (Macroz)	say client sends the hash number for each file it has when it sends turn, then when server process the reply it checks and compares its files and adds changed
Apr 02 03:24:32 (Deathifier)	Anyway, just keep in mind that for the majority of the time this will just be a file travelling through e-mail.
Apr 02 03:24:39 (Macroz)	and if the option to add all was on it puts all
Apr 02 03:25:55 (Deathifier)	If we had a dedicated server then the 'streaming' idea would work a lot better.
Apr 02 03:26:02 (Macroz)	the server keeps track of the hash codes of the files it has sent to the player
Apr 02 03:26:22 (Macroz)	so it knows what it has sent... and when something changes when it process it knows what needs to be sent
Apr 02 03:26:39 (Macroz)	I would work on a per-file-basis
Apr 02 03:26:50 (Deathifier)	Hmm, It shouldn't need to track what it has sent.
Apr 02 03:27:03 (Macroz)	well it doesn't IF the player sends the info to it every turn
Apr 02 03:27:04 (Deathifier)	It should just have a store of the hash of any files in use.
Apr 02 03:27:20 (Deathifier)	The player should send the checking data each turn...
Apr 02 03:27:39 (Deathifier)	Else how do you stop some rather bad desync issues?
Apr 02 03:27:58 (Macroz)	well if you go and delete your installation or change comp you will need to specifically request a new turn anyway
Apr 02 03:28:11 (Macroz)	then it sends you all data
Apr 02 03:28:37 (Macroz)	if you delete a crucial file from your dir then you cannot play the turn to get the new files
Apr 02 03:28:43 (Deathifier)	Hehe yes but that is different to a single fine getting corrupt (or being modified by the user in a vain attempt at hacking).
Apr 02 03:28:56 (Macroz)	ok in that case we can have it as double check, to prevent hacks :)
Apr 02 03:29:12 (Macroz)	even though that wont work anyway as the processing happens in the server
Apr 02 03:29:31 (Deathifier)	If files are wiped between turns we can do something else about it.
Apr 02 03:29:49 (Macroz)	well that needs an additional email anyway
Apr 02 03:30:12 (Macroz)	or tell the host to produce all for next turn
Apr 02 03:30:18 (Deathifier)	The processing happens on the server, but the simulation happens on the user.  If they get out of sync its a major problem for the user.
Apr 02 03:30:40 (Macroz)	nod well depending how complex the simulation is yes
Apr 02 03:30:45 (Macroz)	I wouldn't build one in the first version though
Apr 02 03:30:55 (Deathifier)	at the rate this game is going it will be that complex :D
Apr 02 03:30:59 (Macroz)	just an option to see where the troops are at which instant if the plan goes like put in
Apr 02 03:31:14 (Macroz)	and maybe assume the enemy does not move/moves at constant rate
Apr 02 03:31:36 (Macroz)	trying to keep it simple still ;)
Apr 02 03:31:43 (Deathifier)	The thing is, if say the units combat strength data was changed then the simulation will show different results.
Apr 02 03:31:52 (Macroz)	yes it will
Apr 02 03:32:04 (Macroz)	for that turn before you get new files... you don't want a dedicated server ;-)
Apr 02 03:32:08 (Deathifier)	Now of course if a user did that intentionally it's their fault :)
Apr 02 03:32:23 (Macroz)	maybe if those are part of the mod you can download the new mod data files from somewhere else
Apr 02 03:32:35 (Deathifier)	Thats right, it's bodey for that turn, but if you don't send the checking data each turn how will it be picked up?
Apr 02 03:32:58 (Macroz)	nod can't pick that up then
Apr 02 03:33:04 (Macroz)	but perhaps you want to use the modded data?
Apr 02 03:33:18 (Deathifier)	It wouldn't be loading from a save then?
Apr 02 03:33:19 (Macroz)	I don't see any reason to touch the files so either works
Apr 02 03:33:36 (Deathifier)	If someone is making a mod, it is single player for testing
Apr 02 03:33:41 (Macroz)	the files you have on your client machine will be just for displaying the world and doing the plans
Apr 02 03:34:06 (Macroz)	well you will modify the data on the server and send all the data every turn if you like
Apr 02 03:34:08 (Deathifier)	For PBEM you could have the host able to change the mods data with a vote (which if passed distributes the new files next turn).
Apr 02 03:34:10 (Macroz)	server knows what is changed
Apr 02 03:34:34 (Deathifier)	It is important the client is kept in sync though.
Apr 02 03:34:49 (Macroz)	well the fact is the server can keep track of everything useful except what the users hack in the game data themselves ... there is no reason for the second
Apr 02 03:34:59 (Deathifier)	Hunting down bugs reported that turn out to be desync issues could be costly, that's all.
Apr 02 03:35:35 (Macroz)	if a players hacks his files/exe, the trouble will only hit the player itself with incorrect data displayed
Apr 02 03:35:57 (Deathifier)	Yes, And it should be corrected by the server next turn.
Apr 02 03:36:01 (Deathifier)	Not left unchanged.
Apr 02 03:36:07 (Macroz)	well ok if we want that mandatory
Apr 02 03:36:20 (Macroz)	I would just left the hacked suffer ;)
Apr 02 03:36:26 (Deathifier)	Someone could have a tempramental HD and it corrupt a file.
Apr 02 03:36:35 (Macroz)	like if you give yourself more movement points, maybe you can plan a longer route but the server will kill you for that
Apr 02 03:36:43 (Deathifier)	The file still loads valid though :/
Apr 02 03:36:53 (Macroz)	nod it's nice to see that so we will have it :)
Apr 02 03:37:06 (Deathifier)	Thing is both the corrupted person, and the hacker are in the same boat :)
Apr 02 03:37:08 (Macroz)	it's so easy to do
Apr 02 03:37:42 (Deathifier)	The extra data per turn should be small anyway, it's not like all the graphic must be checked - just the data files, like EFS checks now.
Apr 02 03:38:29 (Macroz)	yeah well one hash per file that is not transfered every time
Apr 02 03:38:41 (Macroz)	I would think there are suitable MD5 or so implementations available
Apr 02 03:38:50 (Macroz)	or take ideas from SLOCCount source whatever
Apr 02 03:39:06 (Deathifier)	checksums might work
Apr 02 03:39:11 (Macroz)	they do work
Apr 02 03:39:18 (Deathifier)	it's just to validate the file is the same.
Apr 02 03:39:28 (Macroz)	nodnod checksums are for just that ;)
Apr 02 03:39:41 (Deathifier)	No need for 128bit security file signatures :)
Apr 02 03:40:06 (Macroz)	signature or checksum, little difference :)
Apr 02 03:40:33 (Deathifier)	Only in how much data is sent, it's still small anyway.
Apr 02 03:40:54 (Macroz)	the smaller the better always
Apr 02 03:41:07 (Deathifier)	Ok well I better get off to bed since we've finished arguing over all those points :)
Apr 02 03:41:09 (Macroz)	if you want the semi-real-time it needs to be transfered every 5 mins or so :-o
Apr 02 03:41:27 (Macroz)	yeah we can continue some other day :)
Apr 02 03:41:27 (Deathifier)	We better stick to phased turn based :)
Apr 02 03:41:39 (Macroz)	yes I like turn-based
Apr 02 03:41:41 (Deathifier)	turn based to user, phased on the server.
Apr 02 03:41:54 (Macroz)	just that the turn time can be more often than once per day ;)
Apr 02 03:41:59 (Deathifier)	Real-time is nice (and the system lends itself to that), and it can be implemented alongside.
Apr 02 03:42:29 (Macroz)	I wouldn't do a real real-time thing though, just faster turns
Apr 02 03:42:54 (Deathifier)	Just real-time does not work PBEM, and we don't have the userbase to get a semi-permanent base of online uses to play with.
Apr 02 03:43:11 (Macroz)	real real-time has may probs too like reflexes counting much :-)
Apr 02 03:43:25 *	Deathifier thinks real-time would be interesting as an experiment in single player.
Apr 02 03:43:34 (Macroz)	nod maybe
Apr 02 03:43:53 (Deathifier)	It's more likely to be too overwhelming, like fighting battles on 3 planets at once.
Apr 02 03:44:18 (Macroz)	nodnod
Apr 02 03:44:42 (Deathifier)	I'm off to get some sleep now, will leave this on to log whatever you and Garison might talk about when he gets back.
Apr 02 03:45:38 ---	You are now known as Deathi_Sleeping
Apr 02 03:46:08 (Macroz)	but anyway cya ;)
Apr 02 03:46:54 (Deathi_Sleeping)	The meeting was nice, Cya!
Apr 02 03:46:55 ---	Macroz-on-a-bre is now known as Macroz-break
Apr 02 03:47:18 (Garison)	doh
Apr 02 03:47:21 (Garison)	just missed you both
Apr 02 03:47:35 (Deathi_Sleeping)	I'm still in the room :D
Apr 02 03:47:40 (Garison)	hey :P
Apr 02 03:47:58 (Deathi_Sleeping)	Not for long though, must sleep before the sun comes up.
Apr 02 03:48:11 (Garison)	are we implanting turn-based real time
Apr 02 03:48:17 (Deathi_Sleeping)	turn based
Apr 02 03:48:31 (Deathi_Sleeping)	the system can be made real-time too
Apr 02 03:48:49 (Garison)	we still keeping the server/client idea?
Apr 02 03:48:51 (Deathi_Sleeping)	turn based is *the* only option for PBEM though.
Apr 02 03:48:57 (Deathi_Sleeping)	Yeah something along those lines.
Apr 02 03:49:14 (Garison)	you can have turn-based real time
Apr 02 03:49:26 (Deathi_Sleeping)	it requires everyone to be connected at once though
Apr 02 03:49:44 (Garison)	can that not be implanted?
Apr 02 03:49:49 (Deathi_Sleeping)	the system must function as it does now - discrete parts via e-mail, one per turn.
Apr 02 03:50:05 (Garison)	why e-mail and not a in-game file transfer system?
Apr 02 03:50:16 (Deathi_Sleeping)	It can be implemented, and I think it'd be quite fun in a small galaxy, it just needs everyone online.
Apr 02 03:50:30 (Deathi_Sleeping)	the PBEM system I was referring to.
Apr 02 03:50:50 (Garison)	do you NEED an e-mail account or just the game?
Apr 02 03:50:51 (Deathi_Sleeping)	You can't do real-time of any sort over PBEM, unless you have some genious time synchroniser :)
Apr 02 03:50:58 (Garison)	ture
Apr 02 03:51:01 (Deathi_Sleeping)	Well you need the file.
Apr 02 03:51:18 (Deathi_Sleeping)	So it could go up on a website the server has access to.
Apr 02 03:51:20 (Garison)	a in-game file transfer system would be easier
Apr 02 03:51:29 (Garison)	then e-mail transfer
Apr 02 03:51:29 (Deathi_Sleeping)	It requires both to be connected though
Apr 02 03:51:38 (Garison)	not really, you just connect to the host
Apr 02 03:51:42 (Garison)	auto-send files
Apr 02 03:51:43 (Deathi_Sleeping)	You cannot expect the client and server to be on at the same time.
Apr 02 03:51:44 (Garison)	and log off
Apr 02 03:51:51 (Garison)	thats why you set a time
Apr 02 03:52:06 (Garison)	ingame timer?
Apr 02 03:52:29 (Deathi_Sleeping)	If you look at how PBEM games are played, you'll notice it's rare that two are on at once.
Apr 02 03:53:04 (Garison)	true, but if you have a in-game timer that runs in the background where your game auto-luanchs downloads game and quits
Apr 02 03:53:08 (Deathi_Sleeping)	To expect the server, who could also be on dialup (meaning their IP changes) and behind a firewall they don't control (ie corporate), to be accessible 24/7 is impossible.
Apr 02 03:53:20 (Garison)	thats true
Apr 02 03:53:26 (Garison)	damn, i hate e-mail!
Apr 02 03:53:31 (Deathi_Sleeping)	heh
Apr 02 03:53:42 (Deathi_Sleeping)	The other option is it posts to a website.
Apr 02 03:54:05 (Garison)	true, i would just like the game to be self-contained
Apr 02 03:54:05 (Deathi_Sleeping)	Thats about it unfortunately, and the website idea has the potential to cost money.
Apr 02 03:54:18 (Deathi_Sleeping)	There are limits to how self-contained it can be.
Apr 02 03:54:25 (Garison)	true again
Apr 02 03:54:42 (Deathi_Sleeping)	Like me arguing against making players use external DBMS software.
Apr 02 03:54:59 (Garison)	thats only for hosts.
Apr 02 03:55:02 (Deathi_Sleeping)	Yeah
Apr 02 03:55:13 (Garison)	well to host a HL server you need certain HL tools
Apr 02 03:55:16 (Deathi_Sleeping)	Even then I'd prefer not to use it, but we'll see what turns out.
Apr 02 03:55:18 (Garison)	atlest a good HL server
Apr 02 03:55:39 (Deathi_Sleeping)	Yes but those tools are HL related and basically work provided you have HL :)
Apr 02 03:55:49 (Garison)	that is also true
Apr 02 03:56:04 (Garison)	aren't you 2 making a EFS2 related Database thingma bob though
Apr 02 03:56:04 (Deathi_Sleeping)	Nobody can be certain 3rd party programs will work flawlessly for everyone, it's just life :(
Apr 02 03:56:29 (Garison)	wait a minute.
Apr 02 03:56:36 (Deathi_Sleeping)	For now it's still up in the air, re-read the argument we had about it while you were gone :)
Apr 02 03:56:40 (Garison)	everyone stays online 100% of the time now anyway.
Apr 02 03:56:47 (Garison)	and in 2 years...EVERYONE will
Apr 02 03:57:05 (Deathi_Sleeping)	If it isn't guarenteed, it's a good recipie for disaster, ok?
Apr 02 03:57:18 (Garison)	K, we should still consider the idea
Apr 02 03:57:24 (Garison)	as an alternative to PBEM
Apr 02 03:57:26 (Deathi_Sleeping)	of course
Apr 02 03:57:33 (Garison)	ok i'm happy :P
Apr 02 03:57:37 (Garison)	NOW GO TO BED!
Apr 02 03:57:41 (Deathi_Sleeping)	hehe, night :)
Apr 02 03:57:48 (Garison)	night man
Apr 02 03:57:59 *	Deathi_Sleeping is away: I'm asleep, will be awake whenever my nick changes back :)
Apr 02 03:58:40 ---	Macroz-break is now known as Macroz
Apr 02 03:59:29 (Garison)	Wb
Apr 02 04:00:18 (Macroz)	you can also send the turn file with other transfer methods
Apr 02 04:00:23 (Garison)	yea
Apr 02 04:00:30 (Macroz)	like putting it in a WWW server for downloads
Apr 02 04:00:39 (Macroz)	and even make the game download it from there
Apr 02 04:00:43 (Garison)	yea..
Apr 02 04:00:45 (Macroz)	but at least email will work
Apr 02 04:00:56 (Macroz)	autosend & receive would be nice too
Apr 02 04:01:11 (Garison)	todays games are all about convience
Apr 02 04:01:23 (Macroz)	that's not the first in the list of things to do but it's in it
Apr 02 04:01:33 (Macroz)	EFS players care little of convenience ;-)
Apr 02 04:01:36 (Garison)	:P
Apr 02 04:01:48 (Garison)	but what about the "new generation"
Apr 02 04:01:49 (Macroz)	EFS2 will be convenient
Apr 02 04:02:07 (Garison)	the thing is, if we make a good game we are going to get publisity
Apr 02 04:02:16 (Garison)	and we are going to get alot of players
Apr 02 04:02:18 (Macroz)	yep, naturally
Apr 02 04:02:47 (Garison)	i'm a greedy guy, i want to get as many players as possible
Apr 02 04:02:48 (Macroz)	less than 10k I would think in any event
Apr 02 04:02:59 (Garison)	about that
Apr 02 04:03:08 (Garison)	though CS has over 100,000 
Apr 02 04:03:21 (Garison)	i think..
Apr 02 04:03:21 (Macroz)	less than MOO3 sells ;)
Apr 02 04:03:59 (Garison)	so, if you had to guesstimate how large will this game be completed?
Apr 02 04:04:04 (Macroz)	SE4, and Galactic Empires might be good comparisons
Apr 02 04:04:07 (Garison)	300+megs?
Apr 02 04:04:17 (Macroz)	depends on the amount of art and sounds
Apr 02 04:04:24 (Macroz)	and movies if put in
Apr 02 04:04:37 (Macroz)	those can make it anywhere from tens of megs to gigabytes
Apr 02 04:04:44 (Garison)	true
Apr 02 04:04:52 (Macroz)	I would keep those as separate optional downloads
Apr 02 04:05:06 (Macroz)	you can always download from fat pipe and burn to cd
Apr 02 04:05:47 (Macroz)	Steel Panthers has some folks that have burned the 600 megs to CD and sent to people for free ;)
Apr 02 04:06:05 (Garison)	well, i'll probbly be one of them
Apr 02 04:06:05 (Macroz)	SPWAW has quite a following though
Apr 02 04:06:47 (Garison)	true, disclaimer: you can sell this game only if you put a link to the free game under the download with no mis-leading information
Apr 02 04:07:08 (Garison)	www.garison'sgames.com: b{u}y the best 4x game ever!!! only 69990278 dollars
Apr 02 04:07:28 (Macroz)	if you want to get rich, this isn't the way ;-)
Apr 02 04:07:32 (Garison)	i know, i'm j/k
Apr 02 04:07:48 (Garison)	though it would be nice :P
Apr 02 04:08:06 (Macroz)	try modding Quake ;-)
Apr 02 04:08:36 (Macroz)	or using the Torque (Garage Games engine used in Tribes 2 etc.) which costs only a dollar (and maybe a certain % from sales)
Apr 02 04:08:43 (Garison)	like i said i'm greedy, but i would never rip anyone off, and i'm not doign this for money soo.
Apr 02 04:09:22 (Garison)	i might be beta-testing a game for a friend in a few weeks
Apr 02 04:09:37 (Garison)	this will look good if i decide to go into game design in the future
Apr 02 04:09:55 (Garison)	EFS2: helped hold back producation
Apr 02 04:10:05 (Garison)	nice on a resumee
Apr 02 04:11:28 (Garison)	well man, i'm off. nice talking to you 
Apr 02 04:11:35 (Macroz)	nod, cya
Apr 02 04:11:45 (Macroz)	I'll be continuing on the layout issue
Apr 02 04:11:57 (Garison)	man, your going to get a sore neck if you keep noding :P j/k
Apr 02 04:12:11 ---	Garison is now known as Gar-is-gaming
Apr 02 04:12:14 (Macroz)	I practice a lot in muds ;-)
Apr 02 07:21:56 ---	Revicul-out is now known as Revicul
Apr 02 07:28:57 (Macroz)	maybe I should go sleeping :-o
Apr 02 07:29:39 (Macroz)	oh wait, maybe I can fit one turn of EFS :)
Apr 02 07:57:27 (--	Macroz has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
Apr 02 08:56:39 --)	Garison (garhayne@hlfx53-2b-158.ns.sympatico.ca) has joined #efs2
Apr 02 08:56:46 (Garison)	hey
Apr 02 09:22:20 (Revicul)	hello
Apr 02 09:23:03 ---	Revicul has changed the topic to: Death are you going to post the chat?
Apr 02 09:48:37 *	Deathi_Sleeping is back (gone 05:50:37)
Apr 02 09:48:40 ---	You are now known as Deathifier
Apr 02 09:49:22 (Deathifier)	Revicul: I'll post the chat log later today, both an unedited and edited form. {ok it took a bit longer than that - Deathi}
Apr 02 10:42:05 (Revicul)	how will the unedited and edited form differ
Apr 02 10:52:18 (Garison)	probbly the edited form will have less repeative responses and take out the good byes and hellos and such
Apr 02 10:52:21 (Garison)	as a guess
Apr 02 10:56:30 (--	Garison has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
Apr 02 11:02:36 (Deathifier)	Yeah, basically cuts out the random chatter
Apr 02 11:48:45 (Revicul)	when do you plan on posting it
Apr 02 11:48:45 (Revicul)	 and where
Apr 02 12:05:33 (Deathifier)	Unedited will on twarriors.com, edited will be in a post on the forums.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Apr 02 12:38:12 2002